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- 2009-08-22 · End the Unconstitutional Federal Involvement in Education — Andrew J. Coulson
- 2022-08-10 · Arizona’s School Choice Reform is a Model for the Nation — Matt Beienburg
- 2022-08-05 · Students, Not Systems — Corey DeAngelis
Every episode (10)
- 2023-03-06 · Moving California Forward with the Common Sense Party — Tom Campbell
- 2022-08-10 · Arizona’s School Choice Reform is a Model for the Nation — Matt Beienburg
- 2022-08-05 · Students, Not Systems — Corey DeAngelis
- 2021-09-06 · Parents Voting With Their Kids’ Feet — Matt Welch
- 2021-05-31 · Curiosity & American Capitalism — Frank Buckley
- 2021-04-04 · Vaccines & the Totalitarian Principle — Jeffrey Singer
- 2020-12-06 · Towards a Libertarian Theory of Anti-Racism — Michael Tanner
- 2019-11-23 · Daniel Markovits on the (De)Merits of Meritocracy — Daniel Markovits
- 2010-10-17 · A Better America — Gary Johnson
- 2009-08-22 · End the Unconstitutional Federal Involvement in Education — Andrew J. Coulson
Who argued it
Tom Campbell · Matt Beienburg · Corey DeAngelis · Matt Welch · Frank Buckley · Jeffrey Singer · Michael Tanner · Daniel Markovits · Gary Johnson · Andrew J. Coulson
Related topics
COVID-19 · Federalism · California Politics · Morality · Censorship · Public Health · CDC · Occupational Licensing
Background: School choice
School choice is the policy principle that education funding should follow the student rather than the institution. On The Bob Zadek Show, Corey DeAngelis, described by Bob Zadek as an adjunct scholar at Cato for the Center of Educational Freedom and author of School Choice Myths, defined school choice as “funding the student instead of the institution.” Students, Not Systems (2022)
Framing and terminology
Bob Zadek opened the discussion by describing an unresolved public policy issue pitting public schools, which he called government schools, against private, market-based schools, charter schools, and private schools. He dated the issue’s prominence to the early 1990s, when he said Milwaukee in Wisconsin first initiated a voucher program, and said the movement had been active and growing since. He attributed new urgency to the pandemic, which he said locked down public schools and banned classroom education in the public sector while private schools were better able to continue classroom learning. Students, Not Systems (2022)
DeAngelis endorsed the term “government schools,” arguing that such schools are not public in any meaningful sense because they discriminate based on zip code and are not open to the public like a public park. He said they are run, operated, regulated, assigned, compelled, and funded by the government, and noted that Milton Friedman also referred to them as government schools. Students, Not Systems (2022)
Funding students, not institutions
DeAngelis described the American arrangement as unusual: the institution is funded regardless of how well it meets individual families’ needs and regardless of whether a family chooses to send a child there. Under school choice, he said, a family could still pick its residentially assigned government-run school, but if that school has a bullying problem, political indoctrination, or fails to teach basic reading, writing, and arithmetic effectively, the money should follow the child to whatever educational institution works best — including a charter school, a private school, homeschooling, unschooling, a microschool, or a pandemic pod. Students, Not Systems (2022)
He compared K–12 education to other taxpayer-funded programs. With Pell grants, he said, the money goes to the student, who may choose a public or community college or a private, even religious, university; the same applies to the GI Bill for veterans and to pre-K programs such as Head Start. With food stamps, he said, families are not residentially assigned to government-run grocery stores but may choose Walmart, Whole Foods, or Trader Joe’s. He argued the disconnect is explained by an entrenched special interest that profits from families’ education dollars regardless of how well needs are met. Students, Not Systems (2022)
Bob Zadek added the VA system, which he said resembles the public school system in that veterans are told they may only get healthcare through the monopoly system called the VA and cannot get private healthcare. He also cited Medicaid, where the patient may pick any doctor who accepts the compensation, and Section 8 housing, where the tenant may pick the apartment or home. He concluded that school choice is not radical but a proven system Americans have long accepted in almost every other area of welfare-type benefits. Students, Not Systems (2022)
Opponents and the defunding argument
DeAngelis said the main opponents of school choice are the teachers unions, which he called an entrenched special interest and a monopoly that fights funding following the child because it would lose its geographic monopoly through residential assignment, meaning less union dues and less political power for union bosses. He also distinguished his analogies from an endorsement of programs like Medicaid and Social Security, saying that if money is allocated away from the taxpayer for such programs, it should go to the person rather than the institution, and that K–12 vouchers tend to be a lower percentage of what is already spent in the traditional public school system. Students, Not Systems (2022)
To the claim that school choice defunds public schools, DeAngelis responded that school choice does not defund public schools — public schools defund families — and that the money belongs to the families, not to any institution. He said the claim is self-contradictory: if public schools are so great, why would people leave when given the option? He cited parent surveys indicating that about half of people in traditional public schools would choose something else, such as homeschooling or private schooling, if money were not an issue. Students, Not Systems (2022)
He also made a mathematical argument: schools are funded based on student enrollment counts but not completely, since block grants also flow to traditional public schools. Georgetown University estimated that in most states about 60 to 80 percent of funding is based on student enrollment, so when a student leaves through a voucher program, the traditional public school keeps 20 to 40 percent of the funding for a student no longer there — meaning more money per pupil. He compared this to Safeway keeping 20 percent of a grocery bill after a customer leaves for Trader Joe’s. Students, Not Systems (2022)
Mechanisms: vouchers, ESAs, and tax-credit scholarships
DeAngelis said the families are the winners in a voucher program. Under the basic mechanism, the child’s education dollars currently go to a residentially assigned government-run school; with school choice, that same funding follows the child to wherever the family chooses. To make programs politically feasible, he said, they are built with a taxpayer savings — for example, 80 percent of what would have been spent in the traditional public school system, sometimes 50 percent — so the public schools, the taxpayer, and the family all benefit financially. The money could follow the child as a voucher to pay private school tuition and fees. Students, Not Systems (2022)
Education Savings Accounts, he said, work similarly but are more flexible: the money goes to an account the family operates and can be used for private school tuition and fees, special needs therapies, online learning, homeschool expenses, microschools, unschooling, or pandemic pods. He said regulations require government-approved education expenditures, so the money cannot be spent on groceries or a big-screen TV, and fraud would bring legal trouble. He also described tax-credit scholarships as a privately funded mechanism: donors give to a scholarship-granting organization, families receive those private dollars for a private school or homeschooling expenses, and donors receive a tax benefit. He said such programs tend to be less regulated because private funds are less likely to be regulated by the government than Students, Not Systems (2022)
Across episodes
Only one episode on the show, Students, Not Systems, treats school choice; the episodes show no development between episodes.
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