California as a “Nation-State”
The topic of American secession entered The Bob Zadek Show through Frank Buckley’s book American Secession, which Bob Zadek described as exploring what secession would look and feel like in America today. Zadek raised the subject in response to California Governor Gavin Newsom’s public complaint about how President Trump and the federal government were handling coronavirus control and shelter-in-place, and Newsom’s announcement that California would exercise its power as a “nation-state” Did California Just Declare Itself a Nation-State? (2020).
Zadek characterized Newsom’s speech as possibly a “mini Fort Sumter attack,” and asked Buckley how radical the concept of a state considering itself a nation-state might be. Buckley replied that there is no magic in the word “nation” by itself, noting that Quebec says it is a nation while remaining part of the government of Canada, and that Scotland is a nation or something like that within Great Britain. But coupling “nation” with “state,” he said, suggests a degree of independence. He described Newsom’s talk of California going its own way in its response to the coronavirus epidemic as benign, and as part of the Trump administration’s approach of letting different states compete and find their best way—which, he said, is just what federalism was all about. If what is being discussed is nothing like the Civil War but simply a return to the early federalism of the founders, Buckley concluded, that is a good thing Did California Just Declare Itself a Nation-State? (2020).
Zadek framed the conversation as exploring the potential for returning control over our lives closer to home by transferring and reseeding power from Washington to the states, and stressed that the discussion was not about splitting the 50 states into 50 countries. He observed that during the virus scare, Americans were discovering that the states have lots of power in which Washington has little to say about quarantine and shelter-in-place, and that local control kind of works Did California Just Declare Itself a Nation-State? (2020).
Bigness vs. Happiness: The Optimal Country Size
Buckley told Zadek that the optimal size of a country—bigness versus smallness—was a big topic of debate when the country was created. At the Framers’ convention in Philadelphia in 1787, he said, the winner of the debate was a group of small-state delegates who felt that smallness is goodness, while the nationalists, people like Madison and Hamilton, were basically shot down. George Mason, Buckley recounted, said that the Western states in the Ohio Valley wanted to join the Union and that they did not want that—they wanted to stay small. Inevitably, Buckley said, the country moved across to the Pacific, to California, and became big: it started with 4 million people in 1776 and ended up with 340 million, one of the largest countries in the world Did California Just Declare Itself a Nation-State? (2020).
Buckley said he did some number crunching and found that smaller countries are happier countries—less corrupt and freer. The intuitive explanation, he offered, is that in a small country the people are closer to the rulers, the voters are closer to their governor, and leaders can be disciplined if they are not doing a good job, which is a lot harder in one country of 340 million people. He connected this to the debate about the Electoral College, which he said was meant to preserve smallness in a way, and characterized the argument that the winner of the popular vote should be president as essentially an argument for bigness that chafes on people who instinctively favor smallness and localness Did California Just Declare Itself a Nation-State? (2020).
Progressive Conservatism and the Buckley Books
Buckley returned to the show in 2022 to discuss Progressive Conservatism: How Republicans Will Become America’s Natural Governing Party. Zadek introduced him as a law professor at George Mason University since 1989 and noted that his earlier books included American Secession, The Republican Workers Party, The Republic of Virtue, and The Once and Future King Progressive Conservatism with F.H. Buckley (2022).
In that episode, Buckley argued that the word “progressive” has been adopted by the left, and that the people who now call themselves progressives are anti-moderns who want to turn politics into a battle of race against race and ethnic group against ethnic group—which he called pre-modern and Neanderthal, saying the whole point of America was to get away from all of that. He maintained that there is an important history of progressivism in the GOP, found in Lincoln’s internal policies, big time in Teddy Roosevelt, and also in Eisenhower, who called himself a progressive and said at one point that the Republican Party must become progressive or it is going to die Progressive Conservatism with F.H. Buckley (2022).
A second 2022 episode covered the same book. Zadek again introduced Buckley as a law professor at George Mason University since 1989, and Buckley repeated his argument that the title Progressive Conservatism will puzzle some people because of an imperfect understanding of what a progressive is, what a conservative is, what the GOP was all about, what America is all about, and what libertarianism is. He again said the word “progressive” has been adopted by the left, whose self-described progressives are anti-moderns who want to turn politics into a battle of race against race and ethnic group against ethnic group, which he called pre-modern and Neanderthal. And he again located a history of progressivism in the GOP in Lincoln’s internal policies, in Teddy Roosevelt, and in Eisenhower, who called himself a progressive and said the Republican Party must become progressive or it is going to die Trumpism After Trump (2022).
Across episodes: The secession question appears in the April 2020 episode with Frank Buckley, where California’s “nation-state” rhetoric and the optimal size of countries are argued directly. The two 2022 episodes with Buckley concern Progressive Conservatism and the future of the Republican Party, and the excerpts show no development of the secession argument between the earlier and later treatment—only Buckley’s repeated framing of progressivism’s GOP lineage.
What the sources do not cover
The excerpts do not state what legal mechanism, if any, a state would use to secede, nor do they name any statute, amendment or case governing secession. They do not report whether Newsom’s “nation-state” remarks produced any policy change, and they do not give the outcome of any debate over the Electoral College. The excerpts also break off before Buckley’s discussion of the frontier thesis and geographic mobility, so that material is not summarized here.