Legalization of Prostitution
2009-08-29 · Guest: Heidi Machen (President of the San Francisco City Democratic Club) · 59:56
Legalization and decriminalization of prostitution
Bob Zadek discusses the legal and economic arguments for the legalization of prostitution, framing it as a matter of economic freedom and a victimless crime. He is joined by Heidi Machen, a San Francisco attorney who successfully opposed a local decriminalization measure, to explore the nuances of current state laws and the emergence of “sugar daddy” websites.
Topics: Prostitution, Decriminalization, Proposition K, Victimless Crimes, Sugar Daddy Websites, Economic Freedom Speakers: Bob Zadek (Host), Heidi Machen (Guest)
The Legalization of Prostitution [00:00]
Bob Zadek: This is Bob Zadek: lawyer, lecturer, libertarian. On Talk 910 KNEW. Welcome to the Bob Zadek Show, Sunday at noon at Talk 910 KNEW. I’m your host—no surprise here—Bob Zadek. Welcome to the show.
Today’s topic is the legalization of prostitution. It’s about 200 years past due, but better late than never. If you have an opinion, if you have experience with prostitution, if you have feelings about prostitution, if you have feelings about sex or feelings about money—and especially sex and money in the same sentence—I’d love to hear from you at 800-345-5639. That’s 800-345-KNEW. Or if you’re shy or don’t want your spouse to know you have an opinion, just email me at Bob@BobZadek.com. I will not mention your name or your email address. I am an attorney; I’m trained in discretion. It will be confidential.
I’m delighted to have as my guest here in the studio Heidi Machen. Heidi is a local San Francisco attorney. Heidi has been—pres—is president of the City Democratic Club. Ugh, those words get stuck in my throat. She has entered the belly of the beast, which is the KNEW studios, to educate me and perhaps you on why prostitution should not be legalized or decriminalized.
Heidi’s experience on the subject is she was treasurer of the “No on Prop K”—if that was the formal title—committee. Prop K refers to a proposition on the San Francisco ballot a year or so ago. It was a proposition which sought to decriminalize prostitution. Not to legalize it, because prostitution is a state law; it’s formally called solicitation. But San Francisco, being the “enlightened” (in quotes) city that it is—San Francisco, or at least some citizens of San Francisco, sought to decriminalize it by denying the police the power to enforce prostitution laws. Heidi was treasurer of the committee that successfully opposed that. So prostitution is still a crime in San Francisco as it is throughout the state.
And just by way of background, prostitution is a crime in 48 out of the 50 states. It is not a crime in Rhode Island. Rhode Island has allowed what they euphemistically call “indoor prostitution.” That is, you cannot walk around with a signboard in the street saying, “Patronize me, our sex is cheap and good,” but you can do it behind closed doors. I guess Rhode Island likes it “out of sight, out of mind.” And in Nevada—Nevada, although most people think prostitution is legal in Nevada, it is illegal in Nevada, but counties are allowed to opt out. And a few counties, as Heidi has explained, are outlying counties, whatever that means. Outlying counties are allowed to, and several have, legalized prostitution.
So there we have it. Should prostitution be legal? If you have a view, 800-345-5639. Now, just to tee up the issue, as a libertarian, I believe intensely—I support what I will call and what most of us call economic freedom. People are allowed to do what they want with their body so long as it doesn’t harm somebody else. And if you read about prostitution, you will see a lot of debate about whether prostitution is a victimless crime. Us libertarians believe there cannot be a crime if there is not a victim. And we believe, and I certainly believe, that prostitution has no victim. No third party is harmed by the transaction of prostitution. And without a victim, it should not be a crime.
Now, why am I talking about prostitution on Sunday? Did something happen to me on Saturday that caused me to perk up about the issue? Well, no, no, no, absolutely not. What got my interest is—and what I’m going to spend a few minutes during the hour talking about is—there is a group of websites, and this really piqued my interest. They’re called “sugar daddy” websites. How’s that for a title? Now, if you don’t know about sugar daddy websites, or if you pretend you don’t know about sugar daddy websites but you really do, sugar daddy websites are a bunch of websites. One that always gets attention is something called SeekingArrangement.com. They are not a paid sponsor. SeekingArrangement.com is one of the many sugar daddy websites. And what these websites do is—think of Match.com. They start with—they’ll match up women and men, but under special conditions.
The Economics of Online Escorting [11:17]
Bob Zadek: The women are young, probably attractive, very buff, and the women list their profiles for free on the website. And they are, you know, like match.com; they’re trying to get a mate. Now, the men are rich and older. And what makes these websites special is that the women, as part of their profile—before they talk about how they love animals and sunlight and sunset walks on the beach and all that stuff that women and men put in their match.com stuff—the women also advertise how much they expect for the date. And they’ll say, “I expect $5,000 a month if you want to date me,” or “You got to pay my rent,” or “I expect to go on a shopping spree to Prada”—or whatever those shoe stores are called. Maybe it’s Pravda; I forget all the time.
Um, and so women are selling themselves, in a manner of speaking, trying to meet wealthy men. And law enforcement is perked up and is trying to decide whether these websites are nothing more than online brothels. And we’ll discuss that during the hour as well. Now, Heidi, you’ve heard my sort of pitch, my libertarian stuff. Why in the world should prostitution be illegal—victimless, consenting adults, mutually beneficial relationships? What do you got against that?
Heidi Machen: Well, thank you for the question, Bob, and for having me on your show today. Um, first, I’d like to say that the United Nations estimates that there are 2.7 million people being human trafficked in today’s world at any given time. So you start off with that number, and uh, you—you’ve talked about it being a victimless consensual crime. So let’s—let’s kind of drill into that.
Bob Zadek: By the way, what’s human—human trafficking? Um, are we talking about the 405 freeway? What’s—what’s human trafficking? And what in the world does that have to do with a woman—one woman—deciding to earn extra money by selling orgasms for 20 bucks?
Heidi Machen: We’re talking about people being held against their will, Bob. Once you make sex into a commodity, you make a—a—a—and we’re talking mostly women and girls here. Let’s—let’s just be clear on that. 80% of those people are women and girls who are being human trafficked. We’re talking about people being held against their will and being sold for sex.
You can imagine an instance—and it’s horrific really to imagine—uh, a woman being repeatedly raped, being, you know, brought in when she’s—the average entry into prostitution, by the way, is 12 to 14 years old. She’s been repeatedly raped, and then she’s let out—then she’s uh, let out to johns, and they give the money over to the pimps, and they’re allowed to just, again, rape. And it’s paid rape that’s happening out there.
Bob Zadek: Well, but Heidi, I—I didn’t—um, I—when I teed up the issue, I didn’t say let’s decriminalize human trafficking in girls. I said let’s legalize a woman making a decision, and she might be a non-minority, somewhat intelligent woman who made an economic decision: “I’m gonna sell some sex to earn some extra money for my college tuition.” So how do you jump from that to this human trafficking? Apples and oranges.
Heidi Machen: Well, it—it does seem like a—a leap, but if you—you gotta look at the population of prostitutes. Only two percent of prostitutes fall into that elite call girl category. 38% are there because they found a way to make money and they need the money. The further down the pyramid that you get, the less choices in life these women have. And we’re talking about the poorest of the poor, women who um, often are physically forced into the life of prostitution, and the money does not go to them to support their good, healthy lifestyle choices. They’re not the women who are shopping at Whole Foods. These are the women who are being held behind bars while someone pimps them out.
They found a way, okay: “I have a piece of property here that I’m gonna farm out.” So, yeah, in an idealistic world that you’re talking about, we would ignore all the inequalities of poverty, racism, sexism. Um, is this really a job choice? That uh, do you think that this is a legitimate job choice, though?
Bob Zadek: Well, it’s absolutely a legitimate job choice, and the reason there are so few middle-class or non-minority women engaged in prostitution is because it’s illegal and because it looks crummy on your job resume. When we come back, we’ll continue our discussion of the legalization of prostitution. What’s wrong with making a buck? Um, it’s on the job ladder. 800-345-5639, 800-345-KNEW, or if you choose to remain anonymous, it’s Bob@BobZadek.com. I’ll be right back.
The Morality of Prostitution Laws [18:45]
Bob Zadek: This is Bob Zadek. Welcome back to the Bob Zadek Show. I’m your host, Bob Zadek. 800-345-5639, 800-345-KNEW. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, Bob@BobZadek.com. Today’s topic is the legalization of prostitution. I have as my guest Heidi Machen. Heidi does not believe prostitution should be decriminalized or legalized. Heidi has worked successfully to stop San Francisco from decriminalizing prostitution. She has informed, intelligent, well-thought-out views on the issue. Their only problem is they’re dead wrong, but you’ll decide that. We’ll see.
I’ve asked Heidi to join me on the show to show me where I’ve gone astray. Before the break, Heidi was explaining to me the evils of trafficking in women, and she mentioned “behind bars.” Well, uh, the topic of the show is not “should human trafficking be legalized.” The topic of the show is not “should women allow to be—be allowed to be abused.” Should we decriminalize the abuse of women? In fact, it’s the opposite. Should we provide dignity, or then should we deny dignity to a woman who chooses to enter into a transaction where she is going to supply something—she’s going to rent her body for a short period of time to somebody who wants to be the, for lack of a better word, the tenant in her body for a short period of time?
Should prostitution be legalized? And I say, when prostitution became illegal, that was hundreds of years ago. It was driven by no concern other than morality. When prostitution was illegal, it was because the country informing its laws had very strong, I would say, exaggerated views of morality.
Legislating Morality and the Dutch Experiment [22:02]
Bob Zadek: And because the founders, the drafters of law, prided themselves on being somewhat religious or maybe very religious, they would legislate morality. Indeed, lots of behavior that we accept now, like homosexuality, homosexual behavior, certain kinds of sexual behavior between consenting adults behind closed doors—those activities used to be criminalized because for no other reason other than the Bible or religious leaders didn’t approve of them. Well, we’re beyond that. So since the reason for prostitution was purely moral, and that reason is out of date—we don’t legislate morality—then prostitution should be decriminalized. It has a moral foundation. We have no business legislating morality, and we shouldn’t impose a stigma on one activity just because some religious leaders 5,000 years ago thought it was a pretty horrible idea. Heidi, go ahead.
Heidi Machen: Bob, I’m not—um, I’m not arguing with you about the morality issue here. Um, you don’t have to listen to me, though. Uh, we can look at a failed experiment in the Netherlands. You say, “Well, golly, you know, if—if prostitution is legal, more middle-class women will participate.” My theory is, and has been proven, is middle-class women are lucky enough to be able to have real legitimate professional choices in this world. SeekingArrangement.com, which we talked about before the break, is a website where your middle-class women and college students and informed, non-minority, non-third-world-country women make a decision to, in effect—let’s be honest—sell sex for money. Um, and so those are the very middle-class women who prove my point. They want to do it; they find no stigma. The women who are interviewed who participate in SeekingArrangement.com and other “sugar daddy” websites say it’s wonderful. “I get my college tuition paid for.”
Let’s look again at the Netherlands. Um, the mayor of Amsterdam recently decreed, “We have failed at this experiment of legalizing prostitution because it brought in an overwhelming number—number of human trafficking.” 70%. 70%. 70% of the prostitutes in the Netherlands were trafficked in from another country. Now, does that prove failure or success? Here in San Francisco, we’ve tried it in the past. We tried it under, uh, our—my old friend, uh, our past DA Joe Freitas, decreed before everybody that, “Hey, we’re gonna just look the other way and, uh, on—on issues of prostitution.” Once prostitution started flourishing and the attendant crimes that go along—that accompany prostitution—started flourishing, he had to come back in and start—uh, start enforcing again.
Bob Zadek: Why not enforce the attendant crimes and not—and not criminalize prostitution?
Heidi Machen: Unfortunately, you have an incredibly idealistic view of human nature, I think, that I don’t necessarily share. Once you have this commodity out there, there’s gonna be a group of predators who want to benefit, who want to profit from that commodity. Uh, they’re in the pimps; they’re in all these kids that they bring into prostitution. You’re expecting johns to go into a situation and care about whether, uh, it’s an underage girl that they’re having sex with. Well, I gotta tell you, that only increases the price.
Bob Zadek: No, I’m not expecting johns to do anything. I’m saying the police enforce the laws about underage prostitution, just like they enforced the laws about underage smoking, underage drinking, and underage—and sex with—having a minor. And here, I—I wonder, um, you know, I know we’re a walking bundle of contradictions, we humans, but from a libertarian perspective—
Heidi Machen: Speak for yourself.
Bob Zadek: From a libertarian perspective, now, don’t you think that we should have small government? So, what you’re suggesting is this massive regulatory system that would put the size of Homeland Security paling by comparison.
Heidi Machen: I actually—I don’t suggest any of that because I don’t see any need, while I would allow it. Um, I did a show several weeks ago on licensing. I abhor licensing. So I don’t see any need to have it licensed. You can have prostitutes indicate by certification that they have been drug tested or they have been HIV tested, and they could have a certificate so that if the customer was curious—like when I go to a restaurant, I might be curious what the recent health department inspection showed. I might be curious or I might not care. Well, if I care, then I might not patronize a restaurant. But if I don’t care, I’ll go into the restaurant and roll the dice. Well, people are intelligent enough to make those decisions. And to—and to say that women have no choice—well, so what if I have no choice? That’s a reason to do it. Now I’m giving them a choice.
Heidi Machen: That’s an interesting viewpoint. But if you want to consider this a real profession, are you willing, for instance, to have the johns tested when they go in? Because that’s the other side of this. If we’re gonna make a safe workplace, if we’re gonna consider this a real occupation, we’re talking about a safe workplace. And the same safe workplace standards that apply to all other—all other workplaces across the board: OSHA standards, OSHA inspections. Um, and there’s just such a tremendously high amount of violence against prostitutes.
Bob Zadek: I’m against violence against anybody, and with—this is not a discussion, a pro-violence conversation. And women—uh, john—change john to a guy. A guy is not required to be HIV tested before he goes out on a date. A woman may care or not care. Well, a prostitute may care or not care. Why do you not think people can make their own intelligent decisions about how to run their lives?
Heidi Machen: It ends up being a huge cost to our society, though, to our health—a drain on our healthcare system—to have people who are, uh, at even greater rates, uh—uh—uh—uh—exposed to STDs, to physical violence, to intimidation, to psychological harm. And are you gonna, uh, endorse having major infrastructure changes that would accommodate the healthcare cost of that?
Bob Zadek: No to all of that. And there’s a psychological cost of a bad marriage. We don’t make marriage illegal, although I proposed that in a prior show.
Heidi Machen: I like that you proposed making marriage illegal.
Bob Zadek: We don’t make marriage illegal because there are bad marriages. We don’t make dating illegal because there’s date rape. We try to control the—the bad part of it, but you don’t—you don’t criminalize the activity. And date rape is a perfect example. When a woman goes out on a date, she rolls the dice. There’s a possibility, small but there, that she could have made a very bad choice with very bad consequences. Choice, freedom. That’s what it’s about.
Heidi Machen: Well, and—and Catharine MacKinnon, a very famous feminist, would say that, uh—I think she used to say things like, “Well, you go out on a date and, uh, you’ve consented to have sex or you’ve consented to be raped.” I think she—her opinion was that all sex was rape, so long as we have an unequal economic system, women making 70 cents on the—on the dollar. I’m not gonna espouse those views. Let’s not go there. However—not at all. Um, however, um, when you’re talking about people being in a private situation, there is a lot of opportunity for abuse. And I just, you know, I guess—
Bob Zadek: There is in a marriage, too.
Heidi Machen: True, but there are people watching in a marriage. There are ways out in a marriage. If you talk to the women in brothels in Nevada, 80 to 90% say that they desperately want out. You want progressive legislation, a progressive law. Give these women some viable, better economic choices.
Bob Zadek: Heidi, in order—if—if you’re using the word “progressive” just to get me irrational and loony and nuts, you’re doing a good job. I reject anything progressive.
The Legalization of Prostitution [32:27]
Bob Zadek: Welcome back to the Bob Zadek Show. I’m your host, Bob Zadek. We’re on every Sunday from noon to one o’clock with Libertarian Talk Radio in the Bay Area and, through the compliments of the World Wide Web, anywhere else in the world.
We are talking about the legalization of prostitution. Should prostitution be legalized? And the short answer is, of course it should. To help me understand why it should not—or to attempt to—I have in the studio Heidi Machen. Heidi does not believe that prostitution should be legalized. She actively and successfully fought the decriminalization of prostitution in San Francisco—this “sex, free people should do what they want, live and let live” center of the universe. Apparently, people shouldn’t be quite free to do exactly what they want, only what some people want to allow them to do. So San Francisco, perhaps, is not as free as it pretends to be.
If you have a view on prostitution, the legalization—would you want your son, daughter, husband, or wife to be a prostitute? How would you feel about it? If you have a view about prostitution, call 800-345-5639. I will not disclose your name if you call. Email Bob@BobZadek.com. Should prostitution be legalized?
Now, before the break, I mentioned these websites, which, Heidi, I guess you’re familiar with—the “sugar daddy” websites. I’ve never used them myself.
Heidi Machen: I’m sure you haven’t, nor have I.
Bob Zadek: In fact, when I was doing research for the show, I was panicked that my law firm would find me poking around SeekingArrangement.com, and I’d be getting nasty letters from the manager of my law firm. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there that talk show guy in San Francisco who was a pedophile or something nasty like that? He claimed to be doing research for a book. He’s the guy who was on one of the talk radio stations.
Heidi Machen: I can’t imagine. There are pedophiles out there; they’re sexual predators. There are people who abuse women.
Bob Zadek: There are people who abuse women, and there are laws that prohibit that. And the fact that prostitution might be a dangerous occupation, I guess, is what you’re saying, Heidi.
Heidi Machen: Right. Well, I mean, again, look to the failed experiment in the Netherlands, Amsterdam. You talk about San Francisco being a liberal bastion. I mean, Amsterdam—people walk around smoking hashish all the time. This is the image I have, and riding their bicycles on the streets. So, you know, that’s a threat to others. Think about—prostitution isn’t a threat to others.
Bob Zadek: Well, apparently—and you gave me the actual statistic to work with—80% of the women…
Heidi Machen: Seventy to eighty.
Bob Zadek: Don’t cook the books, Heidi. All right. Seventy percent of the women who were in prostitution in the brothels in the Red Light District were there against their will. They had been trafficked women. And I’m opposed to trafficking in women. I’m in favor of—remember what I’m in favor of and what I’m not in favor of.
Heidi Machen: Unfortunately, the johns and the pimps don’t really care if these women are trafficked or if they’re underage. They’re just a commodity to be used and to be profited from. And a large percentage of our prostitution population falls into that category.
Coercion and the “Svengali” Myth [38:15]
Bob Zadek: Apparently, Al has a view on the legalization of prostitution. Al, welcome to the show.
Al: Yes, legalize it. When I drove a cab in Detroit—a very dangerous city, by the way—I was in red-light districts at least three times a week. And contrary to what news accounts and politicians and preachers and police say, I never met a female who told me she was forced by a Svengali-like male, i.e., a pimp, to prostitute herself. And they had ample time, by the way, to tell me because I was a truly neutral observer. And also, in the same areas that I, as a cab driver, traversed all night long, police officers were also aware of the red-light districts.
If a woman was truly forced, she could have simply told me to drive her to the nearest bus station or to the nearest police officer. And also, again, police officers are well aware of red-light districts. If a woman standing out on the street, for example, is really fearful for her life or wants to leave the profession, she only has to hail a police officer and say, “Look, someone is forcing me,” or “I want to get out of the life and go back home,” and police officers will help her. That never happened.
Bob Zadek: Al, thank you for the call. Heidi will have a comment, I’m sure, because she’s frowning. Her brow is covered with wrinkles; she’s frowning so much. But my response to you, Al, is I accept your comment and I appreciate it. But my thought is: if a woman is coerced, if there are bad actors, then deal with the bad actors. The fact that people in any profession are dishonest doesn’t mean you take away the profession. You deal with the bad actors. Now, Heidi, you don’t seem to agree that if a woman is being forced to be in prostitution against her will, she has an easy exit strategy.
Heidi Machen: Right. Well, you know, women who are forced don’t tell—are not likely to tell a john who they’re spending an hour with. Why would they suddenly trust you, Al? And they would have to establish a trust for you. They’d have to decide, “Oh, this person is unlike my captors. This person is unlike…” No, you’re there buying her services. She probably thinks that you’ve colluded with her captors. If, in fact, she’s one of the 60% of women who are in these unfortunate situations, which seems highly likely.
To call this a victimless crime—I mean, if you ask any police officer who’s been around it, he’ll say the only people who call it a victimless crime are the people who haven’t really seen the effects of prostitution up close.
Bob Zadek: Well, just to get the definition straight—and then we’ll hear from Sally—just to get “victimless crime” as used, it means there are no victims other than the participants.
Leverage and Victimless Crimes [41:53]
Bob Zadek: I, Bob Zadek, am not affected if a woman and a man trade sex for money, nor is anybody else on the planet directly affected. Now, don’t tell me about tax dollars and all that. I’m not—that’s not what I’m talking about. So, victimless; there is no victim other than the participants. And the prostitute is no more a victim than somebody who lives in rural Appalachia and whose only possibility to earn money is to work in the highly dangerous coal mines. Now, they have no choice. They can’t become—there’s nothing else available in Appalachia, or at least in the past, other than to work in a coal mine. But it’s not—and it’s dangerous and it’s horrible work, but it’s not illegal. I think that the—the, uh, the same argument that, uh, our District Attorney Kamala Harris used about prostitution, um, and decriminalizing—in the sense of decriminalizing it—applies here. And that is that if you decriminalize prostitution, you have no leverage against the prostitute to turn in her pimp.
Heidi Machen: Um, you need leverage. It’s the self-interest.
Bob Zadek: Yeah, but we’re talking about somebody who’s been—who maybe is suffering Stockholm syndrome, who was brought in when she was 11 or 12. Um, the District Attorney’s office has processed, um, young girls as young as nine years old. I mean, you just have to pick up the newspaper, and every month there’s a new article about some kid who was abducted at age 11 and taken into a couple’s house, like that couple up in Antioch. Um, and these things go on a lot more than we’d like to think about. Sally, uh, welcome to the show.
Sally: Hello.
Bob Zadek: Hi, Sally. Welcome to the show. It’s Bob Zadek.
Sally: Here’s my question for your guest, um, basically. A question I’ve had for quite a while, actually. Um, why is it that a woman can have sex for free? She can be a slut, she could have sex with the whole police force and not collect a dime, but the moment she wants to collect some money, it’s illegal. I’m not a prostitute, but if I wanted to have sex with the police chief and the whole entire police force, that’s fine. But I—I want to get paid for it, and that’s not okay.
Bob Zadek: Good question, Sally. Okay. Thank you. Sally, stay on the air.
Heidi Machen: I think that the answer to that is that if you’re giving it away, no one is in a position to make a profit from it. But once you’re, uh, you’re being sold, uh, someone is a little bit of—a little bit of—a little bit of a short—
Sally: Well, you’re not being sold; you’re selling your services. And believe me, police officers are having sex with women, okay? So don’t—don’t think otherwise. I can have it with the police chief, every police officer on the force, but if I want money, then the—there’s so much hypocrisy, it just aggravates me. And I’m not a prostitute. I’m, uh—but I just—it just—it’s aggravating. Why can’t a woman earn some money with her vagina, and—but she can give it away for free?
Heidi Machen: Well, I don’t know. Maybe—maybe from a very selfish perspective, I like—I think libertarians also believe in the potential of humans to do some really great, really wonderful things with their lives.
Sally: That’s what’s—what’s not really great? I do great and wonderful things with my life, for instance. I’ve done amazing things. I—I won’t even get into amazing things that serve the public. But maybe maybe tomorrow night I feel like going out and having sex and getting some money for it. What’s wrong with that?
Bob Zadek: I wonder—I wonder if this issue doesn’t have, as many issues are, disguised racist overtones with those people who are protecting, or say they’re protecting, women—whether this is really racial in nature. When we come back, we’ll explore that issue: racism in the legalization of prostitution. Is there liberal hypocrisy? Bob Zadek, 800-345-5639. Bob@BobZadek.com. We’ll be back with hypocrisy, sex, and money in a few minutes.
The Spitzer Case and Economic Choice [51:45]
Bob Zadek: Welcome back to The Bob Zadek Show. I’m your host, Bob Zadek. We’re having an hour of sex and money today as we talk about the legalization of prostitution. If you have a view on the legalization of prostitution, if you have experience with prostitution, if somebody you know and love is a prostitute or wants to be one, I’d love to hear from you. 800-345-5639. Should prostitution be legalized? Of course it should, says Bob Zadek, libertarian to the core. What’s wrong with two consenting adults entering into what is called a mutually beneficial relationship? This is not a show which promotes or encourages trafficking in minors. This is not a show that encourages, or—this is not a topic which encourages bad treatment or bad acts. This is—the legalization of prostitution will not cure any social ills. It simply is a matter of allowing consenting adults to enter into a transaction which nobody cares about except for the consenting adults. My guest is Heidi Machen. Heidi does not believe that prostitution should be legalized. She likes it the way it is.
Before the break, I wondered whether or not there were racial overtones in this. That is, is there anything wrong—well, I’d like Heidi to explain to me whether or not the act that brought Eliot Spitzer down, which was paying $5,000 for sex, whether that act, in her opinion, ought to have been criminal; whether society is benefited by—by criminalizing that activity. What is the benefit to society of making this woman who got paid $5,000 for an hour of sex with Eliot Spitzer—why do I care about that? Why does society care?
Heidi Machen: So you would—you would make it legal so long as the price was high enough. So it’s all—it’s not a question of the act, it’s a question of the price.
Bob Zadek: And maybe they don’t—let’s assume, Heidi, they don’t have any other choice. Now they have an option.
Heidi Machen: That’s not a society I want to live in, and that’s not an inequity that I would like to continue.
Bob Zadek: Why is it an equity? It’s—it’s an activity which a woman who has no other choice is given an option. It’s—it’s not dissimilar from—and I’m not trying to trivialize it—people with bad credit have to pay a high interest rate to borrow money because they’re desperate and they have no choice.
Desperation and the Definition of Prostitution [53:04]
Bob Zadek: Should you make it illegal to sell money to these people at a high price and send them into the streets to borrow money from loan sharks? Desperation—there’s nothing wrong with desperation. And one more comment, Heidi. The most dangerous occupation in the country in 19—in 2008 was fishing, with coal mining right behind it. Now, people who fish in this very dangerous, low-paid occupation do so, I dare say, out of desperation.
Heidi Machen: Well, now I don’t know about that. Hold on. My brother’s a fishing fisherman. We’re not talking about standing in, ha—in Half Moon Bay and throwing a, um, a fishing line into the surf. We’re talking about people who go out in fishing—in, in fish factories, but let’s not get distracted.
Bob Zadek: Desperation—desperate—the fact that people are desperate, you satisfy that by giving them a way to become undesperate.
Heidi Machen: I think it perpetuates, though, the, um, the notion of, of having a job that’s good enough for the poor, good enough for, um, people of color, good enough, um, for them. It’s a dangerous profession, sure, but so what? Let’s, uh, it’s, it’s a good enough job for, for the—these poor people.
Bob Zadek: Well, so now the question is, uh, we’ve talked about these, uh, sugar daddy websites. Are the women who advertise on the sugar daddy websites—and let’s say they are basically middle class. They are college students, they’re aspiring something-or-others, they want extra money, they want tuition, or they just have expensive tastes. They are not brought in from Cambodia. They are, um, and let’s say they are primarily white middle class, and they say, “If you want to date me, it’s five thousand dollars a month and prove your net worth before you call me.” Are those—and clearly sex is involved. Are those women prostitutes?
Heidi Machen: Well, I mean, we could extend that analogy further.
Bob Zadek: No, just by the question: are they prostitutes? Are the women who marry well prostitutes? Is Anna Nicole Smith a prostitute? Right. Well, is she? What do you think, Heidi?
Heidi Machen: Um, it’s—I mean, it’s a hard question to answer because you’re here because you’re looking at an isolated portion of the population. But yes, I think they are prostitutes.
Bob Zadek: So these women, these white middle-class women, college-educated, let’s say working their way through medical school—let’s say that I’ll—I’m coloring the, the hypothetical. These women are, in your opinion, prostitutes, and, and we should close down those websites.
Heidi Machen: I think that they’re perpetuating the notion of economic disparity. It’s—why should we pay women more than 70 cents on the dollar in a regular profession if they can make $5,000 by going and turning a trick?
Bob Zadek: In six weeks, I’ll do a show on the non-disparity in women’s wages, but that’s not today’s topic. Today’s topic is: should prostitution be legalized? And the fact is, it should be legalized if you have low-income minorities selling sex for money, uh, and perhaps not decriminalized if, if Anna Nicole Smith marries somebody who’s 84 years old—89 or 84 years old. Um, Anna Nicole Smith, 89 years old when she married J. Howard Marshall. Uh, she was or was not a prostitute. It’s a, it’s a very slippery slope. What do you think?
Heidi Machen: It’s, uh, I honestly—marriage, you’ve got two people who are agreeing to certain things. I believe that prostitutes have a lot less choice in the bedroom. And when their customer arrives, uh, they may or may not have, um, the person that they thought they were getting. And there’s not an equality there if there’s this sort of direct transaction of money. I think that the prostitute is then placed in this tenuous position that they have to do whatever the John tells them to do.
Bob Zadek: Before, before we went on the air, uh, Heidi and I were discussing the position of NOW, the alleged, uh, feminist organization who speaks for women. Of course, they don’t, any more than the AARP speaks for older people. But the feminist movement itself is split on this issue. This is a very hard issue. You have heard both sides of it today. Uh, I believe strongly the fact that women who engage in prostitution are desperate is besides the point. People who have unpleasant, low-paying, horrible working conditions jobs do so out of desperation. Desperation is the first step towards working your way out of the problem. So long as there’s no abuse, coercion, uh, other criminal acts, in my view as a libertarian, prostitution should be legalized. It’s utterly hypocritical not to, not to legalize an activity between two consenting adults. And the fault lines are there. The fault lines are there. Sugar daddy websites are, in my opinion, simply a way for people to meet and enter into the phrase “mutually beneficial relationship.” I’m all for it. Thank you so much to Heidi Machen for joining me on the show. I’ll be back in two weeks. This is Bob Zadek, host of The Bob Zadek Show. 800-345-5639. Thanks so much for joining me. Speak to you in two weeks.