Definition and moral foundations
In an episode aired days before the 2012 presidential election, Bob Zadek framed the contest as a referendum on capitalism itself, saying it was a referendum on big government and on government effectiveness in total. He told listeners that to understand capitalism is to understand both the American economy, the American ethos, and the American morality. His guest, Tom G. Palmer of the Cato Institute, discussed the moral foundations of capitalism, with the episode description stating that they explored how free markets rely on mutual respect and property rights, contrasting capitalism with the cronyism and survival-based selfishness found in statist and socialist systems. The Morality of Capitalism (2012)
In a 2019 episode, Zadek offered his own definition: capitalism, in and of itself, is simply individuals entering into mutually advantageous bargains between themselves. He argued that the phrase crony capitalism gives capitalism an unfair black eye, and that the phenomenon should instead be called crony socialism because it involves the immoral, if not illegal, interference of government in the capitalist system. He called crony capitalism the cancer when government interferes with an otherwise free market. His guest, Mike Munger of Duke University, had published a book titled Is Capitalism Sustainable?, and Zadek questioned the label during the show. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
The price mechanism and market inevitability
In the same 2019 episode, Zadek argued that government distortion of markets interferes with the price mechanism, which he called the key element of a free market system and the most important bit of information—the relative value of a good or service versus something else. He asked whether a free market system is essential simply to provide information about what items are worth relative to another item, and whether no society can function without that crucial bit of information. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
Munger agreed that markets are essential but distinguished markets from capitalism. He said capitalism is a subset of the system, a system where you have open private ownership, and that the essential feature of capitalism is liquid capital. He explained that stock ownership—the ability to sell shares of equity in the future prosperity of a company—gives people reasons to look forward. Capitalism, he said, requires an actual legal system that defines the ownership and exchange of equity shares in corporations, and he did not think that was inevitable. He cited Venezuela as a developed, wealthy nation that used the price mechanism and was capitalist as can be, but elected Hugo Chavez, who said capitalism is not sufficiently considerate of the needs of the people; the result was that they basically have become a third-world country. He also cited Argentina, which in 1900 was a very wealthy country and did something close to the same thing by substituting central planning and price controls for the functioning of a market. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
Zadek countered that markets are inevitable because black markets always spring up in centrally planned economies. He said a black market is nothing other than a capitalist system within a planned economy, and that you cannot legislate away a market—you can make it illegal, but it does not go away, it just goes underground. He compared it to prohibition and to marijuana. Munger responded that markets may be inevitable but capitalism is not, and cited China as the greatest market success story, where the poverty rate, defined in an absolute sense, went from 70% to less than 10%, though China does not have the stock ownership form. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
Cronyism, subsidies, and public choice
In the 2019 episode, Zadek emphasized that the distortion begins with government money being available. He said that if the subsidy was not available, the series of unhappy events resulting in the corporate takeover never occurs, and that the distortion starts with the money being available, which is a governmental act. Munger asked whether a rational government agent would make it available. Zadek said that when he says crony capitalism starts with a government shortcoming, Munger’s story starts with that, and they agreed at the outset. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
The episode description states that Zadek and Munger discussed how democratic systems incentivize crony capitalism—which Bob argues is actually crony governmentism—and explored Public Choice theory’s insights into why even moral actors in a market can be forced into rent-seeking behavior. The topics listed for the episode include the 1986 Tax Reform Act. Mike Munger is Taking Public Choice Seriously (2019)
Inclusive capitalism as a challenge
In a 2015 episode, Zadek described a conference held in London on May 27, 2014, attended by over 220 leaders from the world of business and finance, gathered to discuss the future of capitalism and how they may act to make our economic system more equitable, more sustainable, and more inclusive. He noted that Bill Clinton was the keynote speaker and that the Duke of Wales was there. Zadek said that anybody who was anybody in the world of anti-capitalism was there, and that they were plotting to change the system that has served us so well for over 200 years. Inclusive Capitalism: Economic Savior or Socialism in Disguise? (2015)
Zadek noted that inclusive capitalism is sometimes called middle-class capitalism, and that President Obama mentioned it in his most recent State of the Union message. He asked his guest, Sean McElwee of Demos, what is wrong with capitalism and what goals its proponents seek to accomplish. The episode description states that they debated the merits of social insurance, baby bonds, and infrastructure banks, contrasting progressive goals of equal opportunity with libertarian principles of property rights and non-coercion. Topics listed include Social Security, wealth transfer, coercion, financial transaction tax, estate tax, and land tax. Inclusive Capitalism: Economic Savior or Socialism in Disguise? (2015)
Capitalism and racial oppression
In a 2020 episode, Zadek discussed how ethnic studies curricula portray capitalism. He said the books teach capitalism as both a political and an economic system, which he called bizarre because it has nothing to do with a political system whatsoever, and that the Constitution does not discuss any economic system at all. His guest, Williamson M. Evers, said that in California’s ethnic studies model curriculum, they say that capitalism is a way of exploiting people, that it captures the surplus labor value of work, and that it particularly oppresses racial minorities. Evers said this is right out of Marx and is imported from Marxism with a slight racial cast. He contrasted this with an understanding of capitalism as entrepreneurship, as trading between parties, as investment, as economic growth, and as wealth building up in society. California’s Ethnic Studies Curriculum vs. Trump’s Patriotic Education (2020)
Evers cited Walter Williams, a retired economist at George Mason University, and Jennifer Roback Morse, who explained how the Jim Crow laws and segregation laws in the South were to prevent up-and-coming, striving blacks from competing against entrenched white interests. He said that in the South after the Civil War, anti-immigrant labor laws outlawed labor contractors who helped black workers reach jobs, and he compared these contractors to electronic platforms that help Uber drivers meet Uber customers. He also mentioned AB 5 in California, which he called the anti-gig worker law, anti-Lyft, anti-Uber, anti-Postmates, anti-DoorDash, and anti-Uber Eats. California’s Ethnic Studies Curriculum vs. Trump’s Patriotic Education (2020)
Zadek argued that licensing laws and occupational licensing are anti-capitalist and prevent lower-income people, read minority, from entering gainful employment. He said capitalism is begging to free up these people so they can participate in the economy, and that it is the anti-capitalist laws that prevent it. He said the marketplace will punish any semblance of irrational, i.e., racist behavior, and that capitalism is the perfect antidote for racism. He recalled the Woolworth lunch counter sit-ins, saying Woolworth wanted to feed them and it was the government who was preventing Woolworth from selling to a customer who had money and wanted to buy lunch. California’s Ethnic Studies Curriculum vs. Trump’s Patriotic Education (2020)
Across episodes
The excerpts show a consistent treatment of capitalism across episodes rather than a development. The 2012 episode with Tom G. Palmer frames capitalism as a moral system under electoral threat; the 2015 episode with Sean McElwee debates inclusive capitalism as a progressive challenge; the 2019 episode with Mike Munger examines cronyism and public choice; and the 2020 episode with Williamson M. Evers addresses racial critiques of capitalism. The same question—whether capitalism’s problems are internal or the result of government intervention—is argued in each, with Zadek consistently locating the fault in government action rather than in markets. No guest in the excerpts is shown revising Zadek’s position or advancing a new argument that changes the terms of the debate between episodes.
What the sources do not cover
The excerpts do not state the outcome of any election, the content of any bill beyond its name, or the holding of any case. They do not provide the founding date of any organization, the full title of any book beyond what is quoted, or the ending of any sentence that breaks off mid-thought. The excerpts do not cover the views of callers, except that callers are listed as speakers without their statements being included. The excerpts do not state what happened after any of the episodes aired or how the debates were resolved.